So here's a thread to report on their movements......... and otherwise.
So lads, someone kick off with the current whereabouts of these beasts.
DSE
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secondlaststop |
6100 watch |
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As someone commented elsewhere [when 6103 failed to start] - the push/pulls are on their last legs. [I can remember them being on those same last legs when
they provided the backbone on the Northern Suburban too!].
So here's a thread to report on their movements......... and otherwise. So lads, someone kick off with the current whereabouts of these beasts. DSE |
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FedFrank2 |
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226+6105 passed me at kildare yesterday evenin around half 6
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Platform4Connolly |
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May have been mentioned here before, but 6103 is in Inchicore Works, next to a Mk4 carraige. At least it was up until Thursday.
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EdEMD |
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Its probably just the generator thats a bit tired, well they are 20 years old now,I remember them when they were new
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secondlaststop |
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6102 on the 09h30 to Waterford this morning
DSE |
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Ballast Boy |
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Why is the Push/Pull watch in the railcar zone? These are NOT railcars. These are Push pull stock which are hauled/shoved by locomotives. I've never known
a 201 Class to haul a railcar in psngr service etc
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Wilkinstown |
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You are too young !, that is exactly what 201s did for years when the railcar bits ceased to work, Admiitedly different 201s and different railcars.
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Ballast Boy |
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So does that make the De-Dietrich Push Pull Enterprise stock a Railcar?
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Wilkinstown |
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You are right, they are not railcars, but earlier 201s (C class) did power former AEC railcars (the control cars were numbered 6101 to 6112). These push/pull
sets were made up of former 2600 series railcars, which were well past their scrap by date !
Incidentally the intention was that the 6101 class Mk3 vehicles would be converted to railcars and for this reason 6101 -6103 were fitted with Linke Hoffmann Busch bogies similar/identical to those used for the original LHB DART sets. |
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secondlaststop |
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Mea Culpa!
Now we are on the right track! DSE |
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dermo88 |
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Posts: 98 (30/07/08 22:49:19) Full Member |
I remember the 6100 sets being used on the Northern Suburban with 121 Class locomotives. It feels very recent.
The history behind them goes back to the original Mk3 order. CIE/Irish Rail wanted to get Intercity railcar sets in the late 1980's, and were going to use the Mk3 tools and jigs at Inchicore work to retrofit the remaining 24 vehicles of the Mk3 order for that. There was no money at the time to do the job, so Irish Rail were forced down the mend and make do route with these. I wonder were they going to be DMU's or DEMU's. Hard to believe that they are almost 20 years old, and even harder to believe that they are going to get rid of a vehicle that has around 15 years left in it. |
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UKTrainSpotter |
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The Push-Pull Mk3 sets were indeed the backbone of the Northern Suburban service for many years, in in my view they were an outstanding machine. To be fair
though, a fully laden 6-peice rake was tough work was a 121. Whilst they could cope in such cases, their performance was nothing to get excited about and they
rarely came anywhere close to their maximum 75mph speeds.
When the 201's displaced the 121's, the much more powerful "bricks" upped the performance of PP's significantly, but as Wilkinstown has already said, the fact that the driving trailers were rigged with DART bogies meant that these machines could still only max at 75mph,. and not 90 like their regular MK3 cousins. One partilcular memory I have of a push pull was one being hauled by an 071 when a 201 wasn't available. In this case the loco had to run round and swap ends before commencement of each journey as no 071's were ever fitted for PP working. The 071 IMHO is far better suited to hauling the PP's and they certainly had far better traction than the slightly more powerful 201. The non fitting of PP control gear on the 071 was a big oversight. Reliability of the PP's were also particuarly good, and failures were not common. Loco's rarely failed, as neither did the power doors. The were a few minor issues here and there with generators under DT or a brake valve here and there, but by and large they were reliable and dependable. It's kind of sad that these very capable machines could be mothballed ahead of their time and I agree with Dermo that they are still capable of giving many years of good service. I for one hope that consideration is given to redeploying these machines on the Belfast route if the service goes hourly, a role which they would be ideally suited - especially as the original LHB bogies have been replaced with the standard (BT22?) type.
Rant with eloquence!
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Platform4Connolly |
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6104 operating Mallow-Tralee services along with loco 234 yesterday.
234 facing towards Dublin. Platform4Connolly |
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Ballast Boy |
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6104 operating again today on the Kerry road.
6101 on 1710 Heuston/Athlone with 228 |
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irishRail201 |
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Technically the p/p's are railcars, they have a cummins engine fitted with them as opposed to a DD which doesn't.
I can't see the mk3s or the p/p's going onto the Belfast line ever. Can't see why they wouldn't revamp the stock as being straight out honest here myself the DDs aren't the best either and those p/p's are in some state, plus you'd have to fit them all with TPWS which seemingly is only fitted in York road. T'would be too much of a big deal in my opinion and some how something is telling me the p/p would have to b fitted with air con. I'd get new rolling stock in as opposed to have mk3s and p/p's up at York road where the thing lately seems to be standardising what trains run on what lines, it'll be all 22s and mk4s in a while lads, standardising the whole fleet seems practible to me to be honest can't see it going any other way. |
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Railcargricer1 |
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Well my spin on 6100 Watch being in the Unit Zone would be that they are unit trains so fit equally well in either department!
I love the point brought up about 071s hauling push pulls. I've travelled on push pulls for many yrs and since their transfer to Heuston they have to be the worst trains in terms of timekeeping they are absolutely brutal on turns like the 1835 Thurles. I recall habitual 10-12 min late arrivals in Port, Portlaoise, Bally, Templemore and 15 at Thurles. One evening the failure of its loco earlier in the day seen 087 put on for the run down and it knocked the socks off the 201 timings holding time most of the way and only losing time between Portlaoise and Ballybrophy. They are definately the perfect size passenger train for the 71s and with only 6 coaches not to hard for the notoriously weak compressors to raise air pressure in, definately short sighted not to fit them with door controls in 1995. |
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MidlandDeltic |
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Railcargricer1 wrote: Not travelled on the 1835 as push pull regularly, but the 1805 was fine from a loco performance point of view - delays were mainly down to pathing and inadequate signalling! Why they were not passed for 100mph (or even 90mph) after they were re-bogied is beyond me - the 70mph limit is the other killer on the Heuston line, as they eat line capacity. On one occasion, I suspect the speedo of the loco was under-reading, as we reached 80, but generally the drivers would accelerate to 70 (in just over a mile and a quarter), then coast to 65 before powering back up to 70, and repeating until braking for the next stop. To come back to the "watch", 6105 was on the blocks at Heuston this morning, presumeably having worked in on the 0810 arrival ex Galway. Sean |
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Csalem |
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UKTrainSpotter wrote: I remember the shock I got when I first saw a 201 on the pp, especially since it was an orange 206 and it was heading into Dublin from Balbriggan and
passed under me at the County Bridge in Balbriggan. I use to love getting the 20:00 Pearse to Drogheda home as it was a pp as opposed to the 19:15 which was a
4 piece 2600. Though sadly I was on two pp sets on the Northern line were instrumental in three people losing their lives. Just some memories of my time with
the pp when they operated to Balbriggan.
32 down, 14 to go.
"Definitely not Swedish." |
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UKTrainSpotter |
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That 20:00 Pearse to Drogheda was a good run in a PP alright, especially if it got an unobstructed run from Connolly to Malahide no stop. Those were the days
too when that speed restriction between Connolly and Clontarf Rd didn't exist, and the set would be doing close to 75mph at Killester and could run at that
speed all the way to the 'hide.
If I may stray briefly off topic for a mo, there's a little story I'd like to tell about memorable workings on the Northern. There were some engineering works around Arklow a few years back, and the evening service (17:30) from Connolly to Arklow which was usually an 071 and 6 cravens were replaced with the 4 piece 2600. A consequnce of this was the 22:15 Pearse-Dundalk which was usually a 2600 was worked by the Cravens and the 071 instead. Picture this scene: A cold miserable winters evening stood in Pearse waiting for the 22:15. And instead of the rail car, in pops the '71 with those steamy wagons following to take me home! The acceleration of the set, which was lightly loaded, was something to behold. I remember the driver notching up north of Howth Junction and the sensation was same as putting your foot down in the car on motorway. And when the driver reached the max of 75mph, he notched back and let the 071 cruise, which sounded like a deep distant rumble compared to the way it does when ya notch it up to 8! Apologies for diverging off topic - back on now. The 201's on the PP's had a far different sound, they had nothing like the bellow of an 071, more of "tuned sound" than the more raw sounding GM in its older brother. Take nothing away from them though, they were and still are all good machines!
Rant with eloquence!
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thewanderersfotopic |
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With a cruise ship visiting Cobh today there were DMU Specials between Cork and Cobh. As a result IE employed a 2nd Push / Pull set on the Mallow Tralee
service for the day.
Regular and in need of a wash, 4 pce 6104 set + 218 worked the 1115 Tralee - Mallow, while visting 5 pce 6101 with 220 was noted working the 1125 Mallow - Tralee. "Tell our friends out there to stand down. Armageddon will have to wait for another day."
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Mayner |
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Well are they railcars or hauled stock the 6100s were originally planned as DEMUs for cross-country and branch line use with underfloor Cummins primemover with
alternator driven 3 phase traction motors. At the time IE couldnt get approval for the proposal so the last 24 coaches were built as push-pull sets.
I have an IE GA Drawing of the trailer cars entitled "MK3 Railcar Trailer". I wonder what would have happened if IE had gotten the nod for the railcars in 1987? 15 push pull fitted 071 hauled MK3 intercity rakes, 6 4 car DEMU sets would have allowed the early withdrawl of the remaining Park Royals from service and a general speeding up of main line services through improved turn round at terminals. Would the Inchacore production line have modified the jigs to produce a commuter car from the start & continued building new commuter railcar stock into the 1990s boom years, would the MK2D have been phased out earlier? Intrestingly would it have been more economic and maintained engineering skills in Ireland after the fiasco of the original Mini CTC scheme IE proved that they could deliver projects engineering quicker and more economically than outside contractors, what would it hae cost to have kept the MK3 jigs? John |
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